User talk:Sophie de Leeuw

From FactGrid
Jump to navigation Jump to search


First task: Gender. I sorted the table by name, so that you have less of a problem to decide which gender these people are - columns I is for gender, f and m. Best --Olaf Simons (talk) 18:02, 12 June 2021 (CEST)

I have just entered the genders. I have also made a list of first names of which I do not know the gender for sure:

  • Brunelle (Joineau); female
  • Bulfinch (Lamb); male
  • Filmore (Southouse); male
  • Handrin (Barre); male
  • J.-J. (Doladille); male (Jean-Jacques Doladille)
  • Joan; female
  • Josiah (Bundy); male
  • Josué (Prade); male
  • M. (Kemp); female
  • M. (De Beaulieu); male
  • M.C. (Bouché);
  • N. (Browne);
  • P. (De Gaujac); male
  • Shepherd (Wolf) male

Genders added above (when known) Lionel Laborie (talk) 16:17, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

Great, I just added them Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 17:05, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

I was also wondering whether it is beneficial to make separate columns for second names and nicknames? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 20:56, 14 June 2021 (CEST)

We will need qualifiers for that, too. - later when polishing the thing and solving all the remaining riddles. --Olaf Simons (talk) 00:02, 15 June 2021 (CEST)

In the column 'religion' there are sometimes question marks. I suppose this means that we think someone has religion 'x', but that we are not sure. Which qualifier should I use to indicate that? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 12:44, 15 June 2021 (CEST)

There is a particular qualifier "how sure is this" Property:P155 - and that should also be used if you state "presumably" on a date. --Olaf Simons (talk) 14:00, 15 June 2021 (CEST)
And do not worry about the "presumably statements you have already set - they don't do any harm. We can just add how sure statements on top.
Congrats by the way for having managed you own first mass imputs. That was the worst thing to learn and you did it. --Olaf Simons (talk) 14:06, 15 June 2021 (CEST)

Looking at the 'special FactGrid items to use on this property' stated under the qualifier "how sure is this" Property:P155, multiple seem fitting. When Lionel has marked a religious affiliation with an '?', should I for instance use 'presumably', 'possibly' or 'context-based assumption'? And what option should I choose when one person has multiple religions marked with a '?' (like 'A? Ph?'), maybe 'the sources extant do not allow a decision between the alternatives stated'? By the way, can Lionel also read this chat? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 15:41, 15 June 2021 (CEST)

Sure - Lionel can read this (as everyone else); he has to decide how he wants his data stated. As you realise we can create actually any statement just as we can generate any P-Number and any Q-Object with any "Label" in any language. So consider with him, what he would love to read on his statements. Just by the way: any statement is also open to be referenced with any number of archival sources. Best --Olaf Simons (talk) 15:54, 15 June 2021 (CEST)
I would go for "context-based assumption" whenever you find a ? after a religious denomination. When there are more than one, I would indeed choose 'the sources extant do not allow a decision between the alternatives stated' Lionel Laborie (talk) 16:22, 16 June 2021 (CEST)
I will create a first visualisation once we have the religions, cool, --Olaf Simons (talk) 16:31, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

Society for the Propagation of Christian Knowledge and Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts are missionary organizations and so not really religious affiliations. What P-number should I best use for that, Olaf? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 17:35, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

You can use the Property:P91 Membership-statement instead. --Olaf Simons (talk) 17:41, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

Just added the religions Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 19:58, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

And given you the Bubble graph (for quantities) above and here also the network view with the names
Great start. I spotted two problems: 1. There are two bubbles for the same denomination (Quaker/Quakers). 2. Anglicans and Anabaptists have been mixed up. A=Anglican Anab.=Anabaptist. Lionel Laborie (talk) 21:44, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

I'll take a look at it tomorrow morning Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 21:53, 16 June 2021 (CEST) It looks like the small quaker bubble is for quaker claimant Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 21:54, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

I just too the shortcut and changed the Labels on Anabaptists and Anglicans (both were not used so far by others) (Browsers might take a day to note the change).
Sophie: change Labels if that solves the problem rather than retracting and renewing statements. So far there are no other links to the new items. --Olaf Simons (talk) 22:16, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

I will, thank you for solving it, Olaf!Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2021 (CEST)

Hope I did did not mess this up with my simple solution interfering with changes you were now doing. --Olaf Simons (talk) 22:32, 16 June 2021 (CEST)
I guess I screwed this with my (presumably quick and easy) intervention. One of us has to solve it without interference. --Olaf Simons (talk)
Apologies for trying to be fast and clever - reverted and checked

Labels on religious affiliation

This is the new extended list:

We should harmonise the labels, i.e. whether to say Anglicanism, Anglican Church, Anglicans or Anglican. My present preference is "Anglican", "Baptist", "Roman Catholic". If we go for something like Church we will have a problem with groups who do not want to count as "a church". Di not know what Lionel thinks. The solution should be the same in all the languages we are establishing here. --Olaf Simons (talk) 00:05, 17 June 2021 (CEST)

Agreed. We should use the adjective in the singular => Anglican, Huguenot, Baptist…
Quaker claimant should just be Quaker P155 "questionable statement", I think. Lionel Laborie (talk) 22:19, 18 June 2021 (CEST)

I have harmonized the labels and handled the quaker claimant thing. The item for quaker claimant (Q256353) seems unnecessary now, should I delete that (and if so, how)? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 11:32, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

Place of birth

How should I handle question marks and people with multiple possible places of birth? Should I use 'precision of localization' (P425) and something like 'presumably' (as we did with the dates) or should I do it in the same way as with the religions, using 'how sure is this?' (P155) and 'context-based assumption'/'the sources extant do not allow a decision between the alternatives stated'? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 10:42, 17 June 2021 (CEST)

Id rather see the "How sure is this?" Property used here. --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:00, 18 June 2021 (CEST)
Lionel let me know he'd rather see the P425 property, shall I use that then? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 09:45, 21 June 2021 (CEST)
Use P425 to state how precise a piece of information is (like in the vicinity, near) and P155 if you want to state how sure you are that this is the case. --Olaf Simons (talk) 10:07, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

We have got a place of birth property P82, but that should be used for towns and villages. We also have a vague "from" property if documents a statement "from Cologne" without clarifying its exact meaning.

In some cases, I do know the place of birth, so there will be opportunities to use P82. Lionel Laborie (talk) 22:39, 18 June 2021 (CEST)

If the statements in Lionel's lis refer to a nationality as used in the Early Modern Era we should create Properties for

  • Nationality in the wide sense (French, English....)
  • Citizenship ("a citizen of Geneva")
  • Regional identity (important among German students)

--Olaf Simons (talk) 11:09, 17 June 2021 (CEST)

Yes, the statements refer to the country of birth in the modern sense (France, England, Germany…) Lionel Laborie (talk) 22:39, 18 June 2021 (CEST)
I have created two properties for Nationality (P616) and Citizens right (P617). I feel we should create for special Nationality items with an adjective status like "French", "German" to avoid the idea of entities that grant rights. --Olaf Simons (talk) 17:12, 17 June 2021 (CEST)

When importing the place of birth data, is there a case in which I should use the Citizens right (P617) property? When I look at the database, I do not see cities in this column.

Should I create the special nationality items (like 'French') already, or should we first check with Lionel? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 11:16, 18 June 2021 (CEST)

I have slightly mixed feelings about the Items, wondering how we will define them - German/ Germany. But let's proceed, mabe the new group of items will solve a problem. Let's risk it. --Olaf Simons (talk) 11:31, 18 June 2021 (CEST)

I have created an item for the English nationality (Q256459). Is this what you want it to look like? If yes, I will proceed with the other nationalities. Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 12:31, 18 June 2021 (CEST)

That's the way I would have done it. --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:52, 18 June 2021 (CEST)
You can add a uniform description "nationality in the medieval and early modern understanding" - that will be enough to separate them from the language statements. --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:56, 18 June 2021 (CEST)
PS. Use the adjective form (looks good, actually with these nouns. I gave you French and German general descriptions
Third thoughts: the adjective will be more open - we may use that for costumes oder food... --Olaf Simons (talk) 13:10, 18 June 2021 (CEST)
And here your are - looking good. --Olaf Simons (talk) 11:35, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

Occupation/Social status

I started with clearing up the occupations/social status column. Sometimes I am unsure whether something needs a qualifier or not, those I have given the color pink. When I am unsure what qualifier to use, I have put a pink [?]. I have also tried to already give some things qualifiers, please check if those are correct/fitting. Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 17:03, 17 June 2021 (CEST)

Just went through the List and could condense things to 35 new career statements we will need. You find the new ones to be created in column O, I will create them. You part is: supplying good translations. I did this for some of them - into German. My source is this c 1800 English/German dictionary
You find a reference section on this page FactGrid:Authentic translation help and as you will realise: We are lacking something like an English/French section. So try to find a good dictionary on Google Books, add it to the help section and use that for the French translation where one has to expect a particular contemporary terminology. Once you have finished I will create these statements and we will look at the remaining strange things. --Olaf Simons (talk) 08:21, 18 June 2021 (CEST)
  • The Career statements (P165) should be mostly ready.
  • Statements as in a Woman from Winchester will get woman as status and Winchester will be not a qualifier but a regular (P295) Statement "from" - the places should be all in the machine.
  • I am not quite sure what to do with the rich and poor statements. They should get their own properties and they will not be part of the career statement.
  • The qualifiers that state the status of Fathers or Husbands need the Q numbers of the respective "career statements"
  • We also have an employer Property and I think Bruno Belhoste created a Property for servants, to state who they served.

My recommendation is: mark things you do not feed into the machine on the Lionel's first spreadsheet by colouring the respective cells in red. ...time to start the weekend. --Olaf Simons (talk) 16:24, 18 June 2021 (CEST)

I checked the pink statements in the spreadsheet. I think it's important to separate social status from occupation. I put any kind of information I could gather in that column, but it needs to be separated. Some are titles (gentleman, baronet, lady, sieur de…), others actual jobs and several individuals actually had both. For "shop maid", it should be under maid and perhaps use a property indicating that she worked in shop, or just leave it because it's already stated in the label description anyway. Likewise, "violist" should be entered as musician and then add a property for his instrument. I answered the rest in the spreadsheet.
  • Why not leave out statements for rich/poor altogether. It is already mentioned in the label statements anyway. Unless if there is a specific property for how a person is described in the sources.
  • Family relations are all stated in the last column of the spreadsheet.

Have a nice weekend Lionel Laborie (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2021 (CEST)

We will have (without disadvantage) overlapping statements. I.e. statements on te career side that will also become statements on the aristocratic tenure. It is no problem. The shop might can have her own statement. It would be an ideal if we made further statements on these statements. Like: if the database knew "these 12 items are servant status, these are 200 are craftsmen etc. since the software allows us to ask questions into the connnections. We can ask for different columns to be generated from information which we stored on the job-items or on the religions. The religions should be structured as well... --Olaf Simons (talk) 08:36, 19 June 2021 (CEST)

I saw in the spreadsheet that there are some items that need to be created (such as 'English court' and 'Bank of Scotland'). Shall I start doing that? I saw that you were working on the carreers this morning, Olaf, so I'm asking in case I unnecessarily interfere. Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

Could English Court simply fall under "employer" or similar category?
Yes, I would create the court of the British Monarchy as an item and state P2 instance of "court". We will create several courts and we have already loads of people employed by these various courts. --Olaf Simons (talk) 23:14, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

Occupations/social statuses are imported! Some little things:

  • Q255834 has 'young girl' as occupation. Which property do I use to add the qualifier 'young'?
  • What is Caddom (of Caddom)?
  • What property do I use to make a statement about skin color (in this case 'black').
  • I have created items for the aristocratic tenures but I have not given them descriptions yet, since I have no idea what, for instance, a 'Lady Clava' is.
  • I have left out status of wealth.

Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 15:04, 22 June 2021 (CEST)

I think you can dismiss the young girl statement. Half of us are young girls once in their lives for a couple of years and then no longer... I also asked Lionel how we should define a skin colour property... --Olaf Simons (talk) 15:46, 22 June 2021 (CEST)


I wanted to check a couple of things related to importing the tribe column:

- Should I use the property P494 (Tribe)?

- I suppose I need to create items for the twelve tribes. What description should I give them? Should I go for something general like "one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel" or something more specific like "one of the twelve missionary tribes the French Prophets divided into after 1708".

- Some people are appointed apostles to their tribe. How do I import that into FactGrid? Is there a qualifier I can use for that?

Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 12:21, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

No, the "tribe" property would be misleading. These are not Tribes like the Biblical tribes - family clans with chieftains and adherence by birth.
But I do not know what they are. Are they organisational units? In which case we could use the subsidiary Property P419 as a qualifier to the present "adherence" statements.
If they are groups where members meet like Lodges in Freemasonry - then we should turn them into first level membership statements of the P91 property.
Lionel has to explain what exactly it meant to be in one of these "tribes". In any case: you can create them and you can state that they are subsidiaries (on the French prophets item) and vice versa that "French Prophets" is the net higher hierarchical level on the site of each Tribe.
So create the Items and we set surrounding statements on Lionel's advice right before the input. --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2021 (CEST)
We will need clear markers that these are not the Biblical tribes. I guess this could be the good solution: Tribe of Menasseh --Olaf Simons (talk) 14:23, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

Looks good! I'll adjust all tribes to the example of Menasseh then. Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 14:27, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

Correct my mistaken Apostrophe to French Prophets' - and here your search: all the Tribes of the French Prophets --Olaf Simons (talk) 14:36, 21 June 2021 (CEST)
After their failure to resurrect one of their members from the dead in 1708, the French Prophets divided its followers into 12 missionary tribes that were meant to disperse, according to the 12 tribes of Israel. That's why they bear the same name. Essentially it refer to a group within the movement.
So do you want that information just as a qualifier on the present information or - or do you feel that the "membership" in a particular tribe created particular networks (as in the case of Masonic Lodges) - a case in which we should open first level membership statements on these groups. --Olaf Simons (talk) 23:06, 21 June 2021 (CEST)
@Sophie: As to the positions: We should create specific Items for positions such as "Apostle of the French Prophets" and then use the P164 statement on these offices. We can, in addition, state on the French prophets item "Leading positions" and here we mention the namens on the first level and in qualifiers their various "specific positions" (I will create a sampe for you). So create Items just as you did with the tribes. Best --Olaf Simons (talk) 23:35, 21 June 2021 (CEST)

I just prepared the Tribes input as that was almost ready - see [this sheet] beginning (with the blue column). I matched the apostles with the Tribes and stated the individuals as leading people on Item:Q255080 - the French Prophets item, and also on the personal items. I hope I made no mistake. --Olaf Simons (talk) 15:43, 22 June 2021 (CEST)


I've created items for the roles 'has agitations but does not speak', 'receives cure' and 'unconfirmed believer/possible sympathizer/mere observer'. I have given them the statement P267 - French Prophets. The roles 'host', 'missionary', 'prophet' and 'scribent' already had items in FG, as career statements. I have also given those items the statement P267 - French Prophets.

Can look into them after 14:00. --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:22, 23 June 2021 (CEST)
And I created a spreadsheet for the roles, see [this sheet]

Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 13:57, 23 June 2021 (CEST)

We will have to consider which property to use on which statement. Perhaps you can specify the letters, so that we can think of the best Properties to refer to these statements. --Olaf Simons (talk) 14:41, 23 June 2021 (CEST)
So the roles should be ready for input. Really, do switch to Dutch and begin changing all the English Labels/Items you come across. So far this is not too much, the greatest variation was among the jobs. The Descriptions on these people we will eventually generate with the help of the knowledge the machine has gathered. Have a good weekend, --Olaf Simons (talk) 22:52, 24 June 2021 (CEST)

new projects?

Hi Sophie, I see you are around again. Let me know when I can help in getting an idea how to organise a specific input, We can have a brief video chat any time you need that. I stumbled over the Moravian Methodist. Is there a specific group that combined both, then that is the very identity to create. If these are rather two things combined we would state that he was an adherent of both. Yet, I know nothing of the case. Best --Olaf Simons (talk) 14:33, 29 June 2021 (CEST)

Hi Olaf. I am currently working on feeding the events from Lionel's articles in FG. It's taking me quite some time, since a lot of people participating in these events do not have items yet, or their religions or professions don't. You can find all this in the spreadsheet, missing items are marked red. When it comes to the Moravian/Methodist thing, I asked Lionel that some time ago and his answer was: "– The reason is because Methodists and Moravians mingled together at first in London in the 1730s before parting ways in 1739. I’m using this data for an article that I’ve been working on where I show that it was the French Prophets who introduced and connected Moravian missionaries with the first Methodists when they first came to London. I don’t know how to express that in Factgrid, except that they were presumably Methodists stricto sensu because I have not found their names in early Moravian archives." Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 15:02, 29 June 2021 (CEST)
OK, then we should label the Item with that exact specificity (of an English syncretist group that existed for a while before it split again), and avoid the Wikipedia and Wikidata links since these are needed to state Identity.
To facilitate your work you might think of writing batch fragments that create items with all the repetitive information you might need. --Olaf Simons (talk) 15:25, 29 June 2021 (CEST)

I have given all events the p12 statement. Shall I also give all of them a 'field of research' statement? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 19:29, 29 June 2021 (CEST)

double records

East Frisia and Geneva existed. You manage to "merge" them? Make sure that one has no descriptions. Always add Wikidata numbers, the database will then tell you that the thing exists already. --Olaf Simons (talk) 18:39, 29 June 2021 (CEST)

Fixed it, thanks Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 18:51, 29 June 2021 (CEST)

New property P623 Ideological positioning

Hi Sophie, I just created a new property for your work: P623 - see the Item:Q256918 to see how it works - it will be useful to give a picture of the leanings and tendencies... --Olaf Simons (talk) 10:18, 30 June 2021 (CEST)


Hi Olaf, I'm feeding information from Lionel's articles into the machine currently. I have come across some career statements and family ties (brothers, mother of etc.) that I'm not sure of how to best feed into the system, often because they are very specific (like King's intendant in Languedoc, do I create that as one item, or do I create 'King's intendant' and a qualifier for 'in Languedoc'?) You can find them in the spreadsheet in red, in columns 'H' and 'I' of the sheet 'people spreading the seed' Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 15:09, 1 July 2021 (CEST)

Hi Sofie! all Familie ties should have Properties. The directory of Properties has a selection for genealogical Properties, I hope all those that actually exist have the markets they need in order to be caught here. Brother/ sister is "sibling", we have some more...

Indeed - specific positions should receive Items - and a P2+Q257052 statement, so that we can collect information about these positions. But not all the re will deserve this. The Diplomat is sufficient with an employer as qulaifier.

What do I make of 'inspired'. I take it is a religious experience, but what description should I give it? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2021 (CEST)

We will have to see what Lionel wants to say. The Items are eventually flexiblem and often it takes a while (better: a few cases of use) till one has the best labels and descriptions for them. --Olaf Simons (talk) 17:12, 1 July 2021 (CEST)

Maréchal Général de France Q257061

I am not sure this title really exists. Do you mean Maréchal général des logis (Q175589), or Maréchal général des camps et armées du roi? --17:01, 1 July 2021 (CEST)

Maréchal général des champs et armées du roi, that's the one Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2021 (CEST)

Philadelphia and South Carolina

I've just imported the events from the article 'Spreading the Seed', I hope all is well and I've made no mistakes. I came across two locations of which I was unsure what to do with it, namely 'South Carolina' and 'Philadelphia'. I've created an item for South Carolina, but is the South Carolina mentioned in the article the state South Carolina in the US in the modern meaning of the word, or something different? I also saw there were multiple locations named 'Philadelphia' in FG, which one is the 'Philadelphia' mentioned in the article? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 16:47, 3 July 2021 (CEST)

Hi Sophie. It's Philadephia in Pennsylvania and the colony and future US state of South Carolina. Many thanks. Lionel Laborie (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2021 (CEST)

Oxford Dictionary FP

Hi Olaf, Hi Lionel, I'm starting to feel better and I'm slowly beginning to pick up work again. I just looked at the events in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry on the French Prophets, and I came across the names of several Jacobite mystics in Scotland (Andrew Michael Ramsay, James Cunningham of Barns (c.1680– 1716), Sir Thomas Hope of Craighall sixth baronet (1685–1729), Alexander Falconar (1682–1745) uncle of the philosopher David Hume, John Forbes of Pitfichie, Alexander Forbes fourth Lord Forbes of Pitsligo, James Ogilvie Lord Deskford (c.1689–1764)). When I looked them up in FG, I sometimes found similar names (like James of Cunninghame), or I found these people, but with dates of birth/death that did not correspond exactly (some 5 or 10 years off). Would you, Lionel, mind to check if these people from the article indeed are the same ones as those in FG. Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 15:15, 8 July 2021 (CEST)

First congrats on the recovery! We should state Wikidata Q-Numbers on all famous people, Wikidata again has all databases. FG can swallow diverging dates, we can just state them with the sepctive sources. Have to dash off, --Olaf Simons (talk) 17:02, 8 July 2021 (CEST)
Just saw your Shaftsbury entry - with Wikidata and Wikipedia - perfect. --Olaf Simons (talk) 17:07, 8 July 2021 (CEST)
Welcome back and I am very pleased to hear you have been quickly recovering. In answer to your question about Scottish Quietists, I only found one occurence for each. Am I doing something wrong? Lionel Laborie (talk) 21:33, 12 July 2021 (CEST)
Hi Sophie. I've double-checked and updated the dates for the Scottish Quietists. Thanks. Lionel Laborie (talk) 14:50, 15 July 2021 (CEST)

Persons Philadelphia Resurrected

Just entered the events from the chapter 'Philadelphia Resurrected: Celebrating the Union Act (1707) from Irenic to Scatological Eschatology'. I came across three names of which I am uncertain:

- Mr Kemp: John Kemp/M. Kemp?

- Mrs Kemp: Joyce Kemp?

- Thomas Moor: Thomas Moore?

Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 18:52, 12 July 2021 (CEST)

Mr = John Kemp and Mrs = M. [Mary? Margaret?] Kemp. You can tell by the date of entry or the role within the movement. Thomas Moor is the same as the barber and prophet Thomas Moore. Both spellings were in use at the time. Thanks. Lionel Laborie (talk) 21:42, 12 July 2021 (CEST)

Articles done, further projects?

Dear Lionel, Dear Olaf. I just finished with importing the events from the articles this morning. Please let me know if you spot any mistakes, or if there is something you would like to see differently. I read in one of your emails you also wanted to look at a refined model/solve problem cases when it comes to a statistic for jobs. How would you like to proceed on that? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 11:55, 14 July 2021 (CEST)

I took a brief look at your recent inputs. They are fascinating as you created quite unusual objects on events. Some of these would not have become events in my or User:Bruno Belhoste's handling of data (e.g. publications and documents). But it is fair to play with the options. We should think of things we would love to demonstrate. We should develop ideas of things we would like to visualise. So maybe we have a new talk. Our channel is always open. Let me know when you feel we should have a new brainstorming. --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:54, 14 July 2021 (CEST)

I'm free to talk tomorrow morning (until 12:30) or on Friday, what suits you best? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2021 (CEST)

Flexible, I guess we want to have Lionel on board? --Olaf Simons (talk) 14:10, 14 July 2021 (CEST)
There is so far just one way to grab the dates - by asking for every event connectd to Lionel's book. It creates this timeline
Hi both. Sorry for only catching up now. How about talking tomorrow (Thursday) at 11:00? Lionel Laborie (talk) 22:24, 14 July 2021 (CEST)
Noted from my side. I send the links for the open channel via mail, in case you do not have them bookmarked. Good night, --Olaf Simons (talk) 22:37, 14 July 2021 (CEST)

New Property for unspecified family tie

Property:P629 - my recommendation is that we create just one property for close and distant and that you qualify these with the Property:P166 qualifier state distance or closeness as needed. --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:42, 15 July 2021 (CEST)


Hi Sophie, use P83 for organisations and their headquarters, as this is what we have done in the other cases. --Olaf Simons (talk) 15:42, 15 July 2021 (CEST)

Removing and changing events

Hi Olaf. It seems I cannot remove items myself. Would you please remove these:








Hi Sophie. I think it would be good to keep the founding of religious movements as an event, just like we discussed for conversions. The rest can be deleted. Lionel Laborie (talk) 09:53, 16 July 2021 (CEST)

I also have some 'events' that I am not completely sure what statements to make on:



Item:Q265890 : Instance of comedy?

Item:Q265891 : Instance of show?

Item:Q265880 : Keep this as an event or something else?

Item:Q266248 : No idea what their names are. Keep it as an event?

Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 17:05, 15 July 2021 (CEST)

I'd convert the first three ones into publication objects. The fourth one as a theatrical/street performance, keep the fifth one as an event because it's about the birth of the FP as a result of the merging of Camisards and Philadelphians; and delete the last one altogether. Lionel Laborie (talk) 09:53, 16 July 2021 (CEST)
If you cannot delete (which is bad practice anyway), "merge" - in this case to the Persons whose baptism you note with the respective property. --Olaf Simons (talk) 10:12, 16 July 2021 (CEST)

Connections column

Hi, I'm ready to import the family connections of the last column. Before I do that though, I wanted to check some things. For the '?', I have created a new qualifying attribute for P155, namely 'unconfirmed relationship'. I also saw in the spreadsheet that there are instances of '+daughter' and '+children' and so on. How should I handle those? Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 10:32, 17 July 2021 (CEST)

Hi Sophie, we map child/prent relations in both directions (would not be necessary but we follow Wikidata in this field) so you can do it. The question mark qualifier is a good move. --Olaf Simons (talk) 08:23, 18 July 2021 (CEST)
Hi Sophie. The P155 qualifier sounds perfect. For the rest, = married to, + indicates a close relationship (if dates of birth are close, then that means siblings, if they look 20 years apart => parent/child). No need to add "+daughter", "+children" etc. It just means that the person joined the FP with their daughter or children, but I don't know their number nor their names, so there's no point in referencing them. Thanks. Lionel Laborie (talk) 20:45, 18 July 2021 (CEST)
As for now, I've used for all the +'s the Property:P629 and I've qualified them with the Property:P166 to state closeness, as Olaf advised. Do you want me to change that to parent/sibling statements instead? I suspect it would take quite some time to check for all the individual connections whether they are sibling or parent-child relations. Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 09:36, 19 July 2021 (CEST)
Forget about it. Close/distant relationship is good enough. I'd rather have you feed data on French Quakers now. I'll send you the article. Thanks. Lionel Laborie (talk) 09:53, 19 July 2021 (CEST)

French Quakers

I've just added the events from the article on French Quakers. I had a couple of questions:

- There are some events regarding the persons Claude Craistan, Kamaini and Daniel Raoux (or Raoul(x)). In the article, it says that historians suspect these people have not really existed and that these events have not really happened. Should I import these events/persons? And if yes, how do I indicate that we suspect these people are mythical/that these events did not really take place?

I think it would be good to include them if Olaf can suggest a property for legendary/fictitious people. Lionel Laborie (talk) 09:33, 21 July 2021 (CEST)

- Is the Benjamin Franklin mentioned in the article this oneitem:Q100362?

Yes, it is indeed the famous Benjamin Franlin. Lionel Laborie (talk) 09:33, 21 July 2021 (CEST)

Having imported these events, I've also reached my total of 127,10 workable hours (my work diary is shared via Google docs). However, I do not mind making a couple more hours so that we can finish importing the connections column and find a solution for the statements on the events.

Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 13:20, 20 July 2021 (CEST)

Thank you so much for your hard work, Sophie! Greatly appreciated. Should we do a final call with Olaf tomorrow or Friday to wrap this up? Lionel Laborie (talk) 09:33, 21 July 2021 (CEST)
And thank you for offering me the opportunity to work on this project! I enjoyed it. I'm available tomorrow in the afternoon, or Friday morning Sophie de Leeuw (talk) 21:39, 21 July 2021 (CEST)
I am flexible with that call tomorrow or Friday till 11:30. Two weeks vacation should follow, so just let me know what suits you best. --Olaf Simons (talk) 21:51, 21 July 2021 (CEST)
Let's do Friday morning. Olaf, can we talk at 10:30 to discuss queries and then at 11:00 with Sophie? Lionel Laborie (talk) 23:06, 21 July 2021 (CEST)
And on my calendar see you then --Olaf Simons (talk) 23:19, 21 July 2021 (CEST)